Long story short: A Muslim family boards a plane, has an internal conversation about where the safest seat is, passengers get jittery and have authorities haul them off the plane.
The FBI investigates, clears them of any wrongdoing, and the plane refuses to let them re-board!! WOW. We could focus on a lot of things here (passengers nervous for no friggin reason for instance), but the fact that the airline which shall go unnamed (Airtran) refused to let them reboard and refused to book them on a later flight is outlandish. This is even AFTER the FBI talks to the airlines directly to try and get them back on the plane.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/01/01/family.grounded/index.html
Meanwhile, a non-Muslim non-Arab guy is delivering bombs wrapped as Christmas gifts to banks and demanding tens of thousands of dollars.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/01/aspen.banks/index.html
The truth is, America, we’re not safe. Doesn’t matter if the person is white, Arab, Black, brown, Mexican, purple, plaid, Democrat, Republican, British, French, estranged cousin, or Bill O’Reilly. We’re not safe. Harping on one demographic of people is not going to make it any better either.
And specifically I’m talking about the general populace and its overt uneasiness with Muslims. Most people with the biggest fear/hatred of Muslims have never met one (yet they know specifically that they are dangerous and hate Christians… fascinating).
So, look. In 2009, do some research and learn about your local neighborhood Muslims. If you don’t have any in your neighborhood, then read a book about Islam or simply Google some information about Muslims. I promise, God won’t hate you for it and America might be a little better off as a result.
If you can’t do any of the above, then simply hold my pocket.
84 responses so far ↓
The Real Issue // January 2, 2009 at 3:26 am |
The family went through more than enough, including a FBI screening and all passengers were checked. The Real Issue is the airline was wrong and that’s it. Perhaps they should give the family some future free passes for the inconvenience. I would or face a lawsuit.
sandy valencour // January 2, 2009 at 3:50 am |
My sister and I have this conversation EVERY TIME WE FLY. I hate flying, hate flying hate flying so seat safety is our priority. These 2 trouble making girls should have been removed also since they started the trouble. Yes, this family is owed an apology. This is just plain wrong by the airline and I will be sure to spread the word not to use this company.
jay // January 2, 2009 at 3:53 am |
Bull shit why would some one say lets check for safest seat on airplane. Irfan tax attorney should have know that airplanes are safe than road travel?, which is common sense.
I say the airlines did the right thing.
Art // January 2, 2009 at 3:56 am |
If the airline was wrong, then the court system should be the JUDGE of that. I, for one, still remember 9-11, distinctly, as I headed out to sea on a Trident nuclear submarine, very quickly, not really knowing if we were going to need to “push the button” or not. Then, returning home days later to hear the tales of fighter jets flying low and fast in tandem formation over my daughters school, 12 miles from the base, on that day. Then the body count went up. Well, all of that was done in the name of the Muslim prophet Mohammed. … you betcha that many of us born white, black, or green in these United States are a little edgy. It’s gonna take a little longer to get over that “little incident in New York” than the 70 years or so that it has taken the Japanese to get over the fact that they attacked the US at Pearl Harbor! It’s called, screw me once, shame on you; screw me twice, shame on me. We don’t want to get screwed a second time by the Arabs.
jay // January 2, 2009 at 4:01 am |
sandy and real issue.
Airlines cannot jeopardize or spoil the travel mood of the remaining passengers on plane once a doubt or concern on the nature of the conversation by this family saying “safest seat”. safest seat my ass air travel is safest than road travel. Even a small kid can tell that.
I say the airlines did the right thing.
George Vreeland Hill // January 2, 2009 at 4:03 am |
Until so many Arabs stop causing so many problems, this sort of thing needs to be done.
We are tired of Muslim BS.
If you are in America, then act like Americans …
Or get out!
I am,
George Vreeland Hill
jay // January 2, 2009 at 4:04 am |
I am from India and i say George is right.
Biking Radio // January 2, 2009 at 4:10 am |
Art; all members of the party but one were born and raised American citizens – not any different than you. Most of them were of South Eastern Asian decent – they were not Arabs. It’s people like you who electively define your own perceived reality that result into plain stupid incidents like this. Get your facts straight and think a little before commenting – especially before invoking 9/11. It was a terrible day and that’s why we need to stop degrading it like this. I wonder if you also think of 9/11 when the Muslim grocery bagger mixes up your dairy and vegetables in the same bag.
Biking Radio // January 2, 2009 at 4:15 am |
George; does ‘acting like Americans’ also mean bombing federal buildings, sending anthrax laced envelopes to D.C., molesting Christian kids at church, etc.? I would rather be neighbors with a Muslim than a US-born catholic priest with biology background who tends to have anti-federalist leanings.
kted // January 2, 2009 at 4:26 am |
Maybe Jay & Art could put together a list of words that Muslims can use when out in the general population. We can call it Phobia-pedia. Better yet, why don’t we just have everybody apologize as they get on the plane for every sin committed by their respective race, religion, or heritage. You know, whites can apologize to all the indians, catholics can apologize for their priest & the inquisition, californians can apologize for Pauly Shore, and since Muslims seem to be responsible for every bad thing that happens these days, they can apologize for everything….. it can be one great big sorryfest. C’mon, use a little common sense. Taking them off the plane was sketchy at best, not allowing them back on after FULL clearance by the FBI was at best ignorant; at worst a blatant racist act based on paranoia and just bad decision making. Are those the traits of an airline you want to fly on?
Reality // January 2, 2009 at 4:26 am |
Asinine! Such is the fear that Bush bred. He could not have done it without the stupidity of so many hate-filled Americans. Once can see this stupidity in some of the comments here.
kted // January 2, 2009 at 4:44 am |
one further note. Is anyone else disturbed by the notion that Art’s allowed on a trident? I don’t think I’d want him responsible for pushing the button for the 3rd floor at the mall, never mind a nucular (bushism) weapon.
Art // January 2, 2009 at 4:59 am |
By the way, I am Native American. And yes, “Biking Radio”, all 17 of the hyjackers were Arab. And they all were MUSLIM. And the “party” you suggest, who seemed harmless to you, were indeed mostly non-Arab, however, the did make comments that alarmed a woman, AND a couple of Federal TRAINED air marshalls. So … the fear was there. Since you are not saying that you are a qualified psychiatrist, I would hesitate to assume that you are able to diagnose a true “phobia”. For you to denegrate my opinion with distractors, leads me to believe that you do not care for the concerns of us REAL Americans. And, good sir, as far as implying that I am not informed, I would challange you to research the number of Native American war dead and the number of Latin American war dead; who have given their lives in service of this land. Compare those numbers to the actual population for their respective race. “Reality”, you, sir, will be surprised at the honor that some races in America have born to protect your right to claim that we are “Bush bred”. I harbor no hate, “Reality”, but my people have seen more hate-death in a decade than many have seen in a lifetime.
harry // January 2, 2009 at 5:01 am |
As the article suggests, all ignorant Americans must learn a little about geography and who did what and most of all WHY all this happened?
REALITY is correct….most Americans have all but taken in by Bush bred fear and fact-less rhetoric of highly paid conservatives such as Limbaugh….
Please learn some facts before you open your mouth…
Art // January 2, 2009 at 5:09 am |
Harry, actually, the fear was bred by the airline attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Do you really think it is unreasonable that EXTREMISM in the name of your Asian/European gods is alive in this world?
Astounded // January 2, 2009 at 5:11 am |
I guess we, as good Americans, just need to gather up all the “Arab-Americans” and put them in containment camps. We’ll have to ask George, Art, and Jay to stand at the gate and point at the dangerous and deserving ones, because most of us have a diffficult time pointing to American-born children and our innocent Muslem friends.
Jay, don’t claim that you’re Indian to try to make your ignorant point… you would never have agreed to the “Arab” comment if you were Indian.
The only saving grace here is that the three of you are a dying breed and your hatred continues to be exposed for what it is… Un-American.
JD // January 2, 2009 at 5:16 am |
What is this….yet another race to be ridiculed, even when there is no wrongdoing. Let me see now, had this family been white or black, would anyone have cared about what they said? I am truly ashamed of the world we have become. And I am appalled by the outcome of the airlines.
Art // January 2, 2009 at 5:18 am |
Astounded, I have had the finger pointed at me and my people for more generations than you can imagine, as the “dangerous ones”; and we continue to experience the ignorance of people who claim that they are “tolerant”. Your “tolerance” has permitted the systemic isolation of the Native American on “reservations” yet not until we degraded ourselves to the white obsession of gambling, have we begun to award our societies with some “luxuries” like, housing, food, dignity… of some type. It’s time you “tolerants” think before YOU speak.
Dennis // January 2, 2009 at 5:19 am |
The airline was absolutely correct. It is the same as if you yell “Fire” in a crowded theater, or talk about “robbery” while standing in line at a bank. The time to have that conversation is “at home” not as you are walking down a narrow corridor when you know quite well that people can hear what you say. We continually tell people “if you see or hear something that isn’t right, tell someone” 911 was allowed to happen because our Federal agencies didn’t tell each other. The girls did “the right thing!”
John // January 2, 2009 at 5:30 am |
I would have told them to get off my plane as well. U dont walk into a bank and start asking about armed robbery, u dont go to church and start cussing, and u dont ask “funky questions” when u are on a plane. Dont try that Muslim crap either. If it were a white guy asking the same questions I would tell him to get off the plane too.
kted // January 2, 2009 at 5:32 am |
Harry & Reality, what’s different about you lumping “most Americans” into one big racist/ignorant group, and Art, Jay, and George’s view that all Muslims should be judged by their worst representation?
A, J, & G’s fear & anger are the result of terrorist acts against a civilian population. Act’s committed by by a group of self described Muslims.
My issues with A,J, &G are that they are perfectly happy with directing that fear and anger arbitrarily at anyone who even resembles the people who committed those acts of cowardice. You are guilty of the same offense, unable or unwilling to acknowledge that any (and i believe most) Americans are able to distinguish between terrorists and truly religious Muslims. I’m probably the third whitest guy in america (seriously, look up pale in the dictionary and you’ll see my picture), I’m 50 and overweight, and trying to raise three sons not to hate everyone for the acts of the worst of us. If you see me walking down the street am I your enemy? Becoming what you hate doesn’t help defeat what you hate. You can’t use ignorance to argue against ignorance.
Astounded // January 2, 2009 at 5:34 am |
Art,
You are obviously bitter… and maybe have every right to be. But help me out here. Does your understandable bitterness justify turning right around and place similar burdens on others? Is this an eye-for-an-eye? My “tolerance” of people did not put your people on a reservation. “Tolerance” of the ignorance of our leaders allowed that to happen and that same “tolerance” put the guilty burden on all of our fore-fathers that let it happen.
The difference now is that we are NOT tolerating these ignorant actions as we did in the past. THAT is the change we are making as a country and I would hope you both see it and join it.
Zeke // January 2, 2009 at 5:40 am |
The rhetoric from the lefties is the astounding part of this… This family failed to exercise any common sense. Race, religion, ethnicity – none of it makes a difference. This is a conversation they easily could have had in the car on the way to the airport. Shame on them for not having ANY awareness of the impact of their words, and shame on the others in this forum for making excuses for them.
Art // January 2, 2009 at 5:45 am |
KTED, I have many friends who are Muslim, I know the difference between Extremist religions and just plain believers/practicioners… etc. I do NOT harbor any hate towards anyone. It is the ACTIONS of the terrorism that I hate. It is the LACK of other Muslims and Muslim Clerics and Christians to stand up against the EXTREMISTS. I have been to several “Middle Eastern” and “Near Eastern” services, with my friends and have yet to hear any of them condemn the ACTIONS of the Extremists. I do not hear on the news of your white networks anything from the Muslim faithful who are actually doing something to STOP the Extremist Muslims. What I DO hear are Muslim clerics announcing fatah (?), or religious-authorized attacks against the “West” and “America”. THAT is wrong. I do HATE the inaction by those people, who seem to secretly, in many cases, harbor ill will against all of the “West”. Many lessor men have stood up to be accounted for, speaking against, and knowingly gave their lives for that. Your term use of HATE does not negate the fault of all of the “Tolerants”.
The airline is doing the right thing by exposing themselves to court action and denying those people passage. They have honor for SPEAKING UP and STANDING UP, unlike those Muslims, (and Christians) who fail to put pressure on their churches to tell those erring Muslim clerics that they are wrong.
Astounded // January 2, 2009 at 5:48 am |
We need to know the difference between what are understandable and reasonable reactions to a situation and where we have to learn to stand up and do what is right.
We can understand the family wanting a safe place on a plane. We can understand the fear that caused the girls to react and the airline’s policy in reacting to the girls’ concerns. The airline and FBI both appear to have acted professionally and in the best interest of most of the clients.
The FBI then stood up and said there was no problem and that the family should be allowed to board. THAT was new and right. And had the airline taken the high road and explained to the passengers on the plane that this is just a family on vacation and let the family board… THAT would have been new and right and in the direction many of us would like to see.
As it was, the net-out was that WE created a few more people that are maybe a bit more bitter at America… the wrong direction.
johnson // January 2, 2009 at 5:50 am |
Art:
Let’s just do the math. There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. That is more than 1 in 5 people in the world. Have you ever even met ONE? JUST ONE? Put it another way. Lets say 500 Muslims planned 911. No, let’s say 100,000 Muslims did, although I am sure you realize that would be quite a secret for that many to keep. Do you know what percentage of Muslims that is? Seriously? Native Americans have faced the exact same racism and there are a lot less of them around (not nec. to any fault of their own, I might add). So, in fact, there would be a higher percentage of chance for a disgusting generalization of a Native American to be true. That still does not make it right. There has got to be a better way. The problem with the girls who flailed on the plane is I bet they have never met a Muslim either.
Hannah Stevens // January 2, 2009 at 5:53 am |
I have often had this discussion about which seats are safest and it does make a difference where you are sitting if the plane should crash. I am also white and have never been taken off my flight. This was clearly racial profiling and it also defies logic. If these people had placed a bomb on board the plane they wouldn’t need to be worried about the safest seat. The airline was wrong and they will eventually have to pay for it. How sad that we have become such fearful people, but you can thank George for this. And the whole conflict with Arabs and Muslims would go away if we were able to resolve the ME conflict in Gaza.
Milo // January 2, 2009 at 5:55 am |
The family indicated that the conversation did not contain “bomb” or any of the words associated with terrorism. Think about it, there are no such thing as a “safest seat” if you are planning to use planes in a suicide attack.
I’m Asian, and I doubt if I talked about the “safest seat” someone would misconstrue my conversation even though there are Asian Muslims. (There are no safest seat on a airplane by the way)
Astounded // January 2, 2009 at 5:59 am |
Art,
I totally agree with your last comment… being tolerant of the hate places guilt on those that lay back and “let” it happen…
Art // January 2, 2009 at 5:59 am |
Johnson,
I have no beef with the Muslim aspect. It is the mix of actions and inactions of an entire religion that is upsetting the spirit of this land. This includes the Christian aspect.
It is not that the girl “flailed” it is the words that were spoken.
The airline is doing the honorable thing. It is unfortunate that the Muslim family, who are probably just as nice as the rest of my Muslim friends, has been “inconvenienced”.
It is honorable that the airline has stood up and is the mouse against the lion. Their long benefit is that they are going to provide an opportunity for the entire Muslim and Christian world to talk about stopping the killing and scaring of others in the name of a god.
kted // January 2, 2009 at 6:03 am |
Zeke, their conversation didn’t consist of the husband saying “gee honey, should i put the bomb in the overhead or the back of the seat in front of me?”. It was the same conversation i hear on almost every flight by people nervous about flying; the safety of flying in general. The FBI (yeah i know, they’re nothing but a big lefty organization) stated they said & did NOTHING wrong and tried to get them back on the plane. Is the only thing i need to do to get some extra room on a plane is to fly air tran and tell the flight attendant that the guy next to me used safe & plane in the same paragraph? gee, you might be on to something. Now I’ll have room for my laptop bag. Common sense & the airline’s decision to not allow them to re-board had nothing to do with each other.
johnson // January 2, 2009 at 6:13 am |
Art:
You will notice I focused on the girls’ “flailing” because the only thing you can really fault the airline for is not putting this family on another plane. And no, the words spoken were NOT the problem. Not even from the FBI’s perspective. It was how two girls interpreted their eavesdropping. It seems you like freedom of speech, right? So then you will agree that talking about the safest seat in a plane is complete uneventful fluff. Unless a Muslim says it and someone less worldly than you hears it and panics. And herein lies the issue I think you are missing. Undoubtedly larger problems with Islam’s supporters exist, but do you really think these two girls were affected by anything but their own ignorance of living in suburban Virginia or wherever? Hey, this is not the biggest tragedy in the world. But it is indicative of something beyond problems with the Muslim “brand.”
Annoyed // January 2, 2009 at 6:17 am |
The airline should have let them board a later flight after the FBI cleared them. No one on a new flight would have heard what was said earlier so there wouldn’t have been a problem letting them on the plane.
Frankly, I’m sick of people expecting every person of any minority group to be responsible for the actions of everyone with the same skin tone, accent, or religion. If I can’t treat all white people with suspicion because most serial killers are white then don’t assume I’m a bad person because my skin is dark.
kted // January 2, 2009 at 6:21 am |
Art, I’m perfectly happy to accept everything you said at face value, and I honestly believe it to be for the most part true. It still has no bearing on what this group going on a family vacation went through. In the worst case scenario, they said something that alarmed another passenger. Let’s say that talking about seat safety did justify concern (something i’m not sure is true, but i wasn’t there to hear the context of the conversation). The airline called in the people (the FBI) who are responsible for deciding whether it is a credible threat. The FBI said it wasn’t. This is the point where logic seems to dictate that they be allowed to continue their vacation. At what point does an irrational fear justify an irrational resolution. If someone says you’re scary looking, should the airline be allowed to remove you even if the FBI says “hey we checked him out and he’s completely harmless”? If you’re drawing the line at their race, then it’s racism. If you’re drawing the line based on “i just feel there’s something wrong” then it’s paranoia. Neither is a valid argument for treating them as they were treated.
Astounded Canadian // January 2, 2009 at 6:26 am |
If someone is planning to blow up the plane, they probably won’t talk about it first.
This abundance of caution crap, is just an abundance of stupidity.
Can’t reaonable people THINK on their own anymore?
Frank // January 2, 2009 at 6:31 am |
I know one of the Irfan’s personally from working with him at a local Washington DC hospital. He is as American as any of us. The family was raised in Detroit and has ties to the Orlando area. That’s why the FBI cleared them so quickly.
One brother is an anesthesiologist. The other brother is a tax attorney. These guys were traveling with their families. Who would blow up a plane with their young kids on board.
The girls over-reacted. It’s clearly racial profiling. They thought they overheard something. What if the Muslim brother’s said something about the girls and told the flight crew. I doubt the flight crew would have hauled in the FBI and thrown the girls off the plane “just because they look dangerous”
The family doesn’t not want or need any money. They earn a very good living. What they want is an apology from AirTran. If AirTran would have rebooked them on a later flight or repaid them for having to book a flight on US Airways at the last minute, the problem would have been solved.
AirTran “refunded” them the tickets but they probably booked weeks or month in advance so the tickets probably only costs 200-300 a person. Now they had to rebook a last minute US Airways flight which probably costs $1000 a ticket at the last minute.
jay // January 2, 2009 at 6:45 am |
Thats good Frank now the family will learn what to talk at home and what to speak in airplane.
Art // January 2, 2009 at 6:52 am |
Last comment. An apology changes nothing. The facts of this, if necessary to be judged, should be judged in the land of those who can do it. That would be a court. If the court says an apology is needed, then so be it. If the court says the family needs a million of your white dollars to “undo” the discussion that alarmed the girl and the two air marshalls, then so be it. But the root of the weed remains to grow; and to prevent it from growing, either the root must go, or the soil must go. The land will always remain.
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 6:56 am |
Airtran did the right thing in both pulling them off the flight and refusing to rebook them. What the article doesn’t say is that the passengers called the Airtran gate supervisor a MF and poor white trash. Such language is rightfully considered hostile. Under no circumstances should an airline tolerate such behavior from any passenger, regardless of race.
downsteamJim // January 2, 2009 at 6:58 am |
Why should people fear muslims just because Islam is responsible for terrorist attacks in Spain, Indonesia, the U.S., Thailand, Denmark, Argentina, Russia, Israel, India, Tunisia, the Philippines, Pakistan, Britians …..?
kted // January 2, 2009 at 6:59 am |
this just in from Jay.
Attention all Muslims. When out in public, you can talk about the following:
-Chicken Soup
-String Theory (in a non-violent way of course)
-The 1985 Bears
-Words ending in “q”
-boxers vs briefs
As further “allowable” topics are added, you will be notified. Oh yeah, please refrain from any discussions of “free speech” or “constitutional rights”
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 7:09 am |
kted, Don’t act like you were there or know all of the details. Don’t forget that constitutional rights also apply to businesses. If an Airline believes there is a threat, they have the right to act accordingly…period
kted // January 2, 2009 at 7:16 am |
hey downstreamjim, a bunch of white guys in bankers suits ran away with all my retirement money…. does that mean i shouldn’t trust any white guys anymore? that’s gonna be tough on me since i see one every morning when i get up & look in the mirror.
raj // January 2, 2009 at 7:17 am |
Lets ignore all the posts that are anti muslim. The fact is that this was a mistake by the flight crew but they acted on their data and their job is better to be safe than sorry.
However I have some inputs here after they were deboarded.
* Air Trans should have taken the family back on board.
* I had an incident with AirTran and was deboarded. I was discussing airline engines on the phone because its my job . The discussion was around leasing some GE engines to a Russian airline. I am not muslim, I wear an Armani suit but unfortunately I am brown and it was obvious from the attendants remarks this played a factor eg. “with your background you shoul be more carefull than others” (Im an American born with Indian heritage – even my parents are Americans).
My main comment is this:
TSA and the airlines have been very professional about screening given how big 9-11 was. Its improved a lot over the years and I think generally American citizens are not screened by background – foreigners are though.
So my main anger is at AirTran. Even if it was a mistake they should have apologized and accomodated the family. Im fairly convinced that AirTran has a subtle culture of racism in their training and management. Ive always been skeptical of the airline as they had to aqcuire a smaller airline to change their name from Valujet to AirTran. It makes me laugh that an airline thats negligence killed so many people in the Miami crash is talking about safety now.
For the bloggers – its ok to screen foreign muslims and its even ok to make an occasional mistake because someones brown. Im used to it – but Air Tran seems to have some serious problems with dealing with coloured people. Fly Delta; better management and a hell of a lot safer!
johnson // January 2, 2009 at 7:17 am |
DownsteamJim:
Every single one of those countries fought or had wars fought on their land in the name of Christianity. Actual wars where millions died. Thanks for playing.
Art:
Can you have roots without soil?
kted // January 2, 2009 at 7:18 am |
If the airline believed there was a threat, why did they publicly state that the family could fly their airlines in the future?
johnson // January 2, 2009 at 7:23 am |
The facts:
Can you show me where in the constitution rights are bestowed businesses? I would be fascinated to see what you pull up. I am going to take a wild guess that you are not a lawyer. Just a shot in the dark.
Dboat // January 2, 2009 at 7:27 am |
Art: Timothy McVeigh was a catholic, white, Irish-american, military vet. Let’s lock up everyone in this demographic. They scare me more than anyone. Who’s left now?
Dboat
kted // January 2, 2009 at 7:37 am |
dboat,
i’m half-irish and half polish (according to my father all that means is that i’ll crawl over 6 naked women to get to the bar), catholic, and i’m a military vet . I have a flaw in your argument. If i lock up myself for no rational reason, how will i be able to lock up people of other races and beliefs for no rational reason? ouch, now my head hurts.
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 7:42 am |
Raj…You’re mistaken on many levels. First, as mentioned earlier, the passengers became extremely hostile and vulgar with the gate supervisor after being taken off the aircraft. No airline will allow hostile passengers to reboard the same day under those circumstances. Regarding the Valuejet comment, you’re facts are backwards. Airtran purchased Valuejet, not the other way around.
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 7:43 am |
kted, it is not uncommon for an Airline to deny boarding for a day. A cooling off period is perfectly. reasonable when a passenger becomes hostile.
Sid // January 2, 2009 at 7:43 am |
Art,
To your point of muslim outrage… There is outrage, but, it is not newsworthy whatsoever. Who wants to see a boring peaceful demonstration when there are a few crazy fanaticals that burn the American flag and effigies?
Secondly, why are you expecting a muslim to apologize for the actions of another so called muslim by name that perpretrated 9/11?
Use some common sense and treat individuals as individuals.
I am a muslim and it has nothing to do with 9/11, nor shall I feel compelled to ‘apologize’ for it. These were brainwashed people with an agenda and it has nothing to do with me and my peaceful existence. Was I outraged? Yes, period.
Sid // January 2, 2009 at 7:48 am |
The facts, if what you say is true about the vulgarity, sure its a human reaction. Travel is never easy, especially with a whole family, not to mention being further displaced when you’re traveling over the holidays and the airline takes you of for no good reason whatsoever. Secondly they refuse to bump you to another flight in light of all this. You HAVE to brace for a human reaction and deal with it. It ought not be by making a situation worse.
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 7:49 am |
Johnson, you’re in over you’re head. Just a shot in the dark. The constitution does not specifically give rights to corporations, it gives rights to individuals. However, corporations are comprised of individuals collectively. Consequently, many of the rights apply to business. The founding fathers were extremely pro-business and pro-private property. This is the very reason the constitution provides economic freedom…so that businesses may thrive.
Mike // January 2, 2009 at 7:49 am |
I am an American of Indian descent. I support the airline and their actions. Profiling in my opinion is justified in this case. Who would you be suspicious of a grandmother from TX or some ultra-religious bearded scarf wearing family. I don’t mind being profiled for my own safety
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 7:54 am |
Sid, MOST industries would be expected to brace for a human reaction. This does not apply to the airline industry because of the safety implications. Airlines cannot allow hostile passengers on board for the same reasons they cannot allow intoxicated passengers on board…they are a safety hazard.
Sid // January 2, 2009 at 7:55 am |
Grandmothers from Texas can be pretty scary, remember you can carry a concealed weapon in Texas LOL.
Next time we are attacked do you think it will be the usual suspects? It could VERY well be that Grams from Texas because people like you are unsuspecting of them and let their gaurd down. EVERYONE should be treated the same. There are many millions of white muslims with Christian names so your self support of racial profiling is really very assinine.
Sid // January 2, 2009 at 7:58 am |
The facts, I can appreciate that, specific to the airline industry. So basically once disgruntled and overly agitate will negate any chance to get back on a flight as there may potentially be a further risk this hostility may intensify.
kted // January 2, 2009 at 7:58 am |
Facts – I’ve yet to read an article confirming (or even mentioning) your version of the story. Even you said it wasn’t in the article so forgive me if i question your “FACTS”. You’re saying that as the FBI escorted the family off the flight, the most important thing they could think of doing was to verbally attack the gate attendant in front of those same FBI agents….. and yet no paper thought that was newsworthy. Even if they did swear at airline reps, i hope that would be ALL i did if i was taken off my family vacation flight for no other reason then discussing the safest seats on an airplane. People defending the airlines have said that the family should have understood the women who made the complaint and the airline’s point of view. At what point is the airline responsible for understanding the family’s point of view. Oh wait, I forgot business’s have the constitutional rights not to. (i’m still looking for that article in the constitution.)
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 8:21 am |
kted, I’m sorry I can’t tell you how I found out the story. I know that doesn’t lend itself to my credibility. I’ll just say that it is a fact, believe it or don’t believe it. Regarding business’s having constittional rights. As mentioned earlier, the constitution does not specifically give rights to corporations, it gives rights to individuals. However, corporations are comprised of individuals collectively. Consequently, many of the rights apply to business. The founding fathers were extremely pro-business and pro-private property. This is the very reason the constitution provides economic freedom…so that businesses may thrive.
Art // January 2, 2009 at 8:26 am |
The Fourteenth Amendment used the word “person” in the body of the amendment. This caused some confusion about who “persons” were. Did women qualify? Or corporations? The Supreme Court responded by saying that the word “person” in the Fourteenth Amendment meant just black males.
That, however, wasn’t the end of it. Corporations had a lot of money and a lot at stake, and they took case after case to court. In 1886, corporations gained a victory. Before the Supreme Court session to announce the decision in the case Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific Railroad, Chief Justice Waite said that the court wouldn’t hear arguments on whether the Fourteenth Amendment clause on equal protection applied to corporations; they all believed that it did.
The case was decided on other grounds. But, the principle that corporations have Fourteenth Amendment rights was inserted by the Supreme Court reporter in a header in the published report of the case. A couple of years later, in the case Minneapolis & St. Louis Railroad v. Beckwith (1889), the Court cited the Santa Clara case as the precedent for corporations having due process and equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment. With that, corporations became legal persons in the United States, and gained the ability to challenge in federal court regulatory actions at the state level.
kted // January 2, 2009 at 8:34 am |
Facts – Again, I find it hard to believe that an openly hostile family would have the backing of the FBI in their efforts to re-board. Should i believe a trained field agent’s analysis or the the “after the fact” word of a gate attendant.
But let’s say i just accept your version without any proof and without question. What you’re saying is that all an airlines has to do to clear space on an overbooked flight is to go on board, piss off some passenger for no valid reason, and then remove them from the flight because they’re pissed off. After which they bear no responsibility for their actions.
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 8:35 am |
Hats off to Art…nice work
Art // January 2, 2009 at 8:45 am |
Sid;
Thank you for your rage. I propose that there are many white, brown, black, and red warriors who continue to fight and die, and fight and live, in these white and brown wars. I also propose that there are many non-warrior classes who continue to be injured and die… all while many continue to “rage” but, their religious leaders “do” nothing more than… as you put it “rage”. I for one continually take flak from my brown brothers that I am too critical of the Middle/Near Eastern lack of religious action against the extremists. Again, as my red heritage tells me; the ultimate honor given is for he who fights the bear at all cost.
A. Anderson // January 2, 2009 at 8:45 am |
Well first, I guess I’ll say congrats on posting this. It seems to have enlightened a bunch of people. I’ll put my response later when I have time to read through all the messages and then form some cogent rebuttal.
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 8:46 am |
Kted – The FBI never said Airtran was wrong for taking the passengers off. They simply cleared them after the incident. You’ve got to be reasonable. Passengers reported a threat. They were not arbitrarily taken off the aircraft.
Art // January 2, 2009 at 8:51 am |
KTED;
Airlines have the right to not board anyone for any reason. That is the good thing about white laws: a private company has privacy. Because of this, you “free” white people get to do what you want with your own companies. …and we red people do not have to be watched while we make love to our women on the “res”!
kted // January 2, 2009 at 9:02 am |
Facts,
I never said that the FBI faulted the airline for taking them off the plane. However, the story specifically states that the FBI went back to the airlines and said there was no threat and that the passengers had done nothing wrong. They also went to the airlines & backed the passengers in their effort to re-board. I’ve stated repeatedly in my posts that this is where common sense was lost. If the UNTRAINED airline rep had taken the word of the TRAINED FBI field agent (and reviewed the situation as a whole with an UNBIASED eye), the whole episode and this resulting discussion would never have occurred. I understand that in these times people’s feelings are going to get stepped on in the name of security, but in this case, their rights were trampled.
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 9:03 am |
Finally what I’ve been waiting for…the offical press release confirming my story:
http://pressroom.airtran.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201565&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1240078&highlight
Sid // January 2, 2009 at 9:11 am |
Art,
Sorry, but if you are implying I ought to do more than being outraged than sorry to let you down. I am not a spokesperson for the perpetrators of 9/11 just because they called themselves ‘muslim’ (I use the term loosely). The government of the where the terrorists originated from is doing a lot on this fight against them (if you know anything about the Saudi Monachy they are hated by Al-Qaida who seeks to destroy them). What is it that you need to see done?
Art // January 2, 2009 at 9:28 am |
Sid;
Simple. I need to see a campaign, on air (CNN,HLN,MSNBC, etc) run and funded by the churches of Islam, that orders all Muslims, who think that they must conduct “jihad” against the West, to stop now, and atone for their sins by providing volunteer services, such as road building, medical assistance, etc. This must be immediately followed by a complete and absolute halt of all bombings, worldwide, conducted in the name of Islam, in any form whatsoever. This MUST be ordered by the highest of all possible Muslim clerics worldwide. I know that the christian king, the Pope Benedict, has decreed already peace, however, this is not enough. All bombings, and murders etc, must be ordered halted by all religious leaders.
That is what I want.
kted // January 2, 2009 at 9:44 am |
Facts, – I hope that to be the full and accurate story, but it conflicts with the original story on when the passengers were cleared and when the FBI informed the airlines. Unfortunately it also colors you as an industry insider with self serving motives. However, the time frame of the original story is based on the word of the passengers themselves (and the HOPE that the reporter exerted some effort in substantiating the statements). This press release is based on the word of the Airline itself. I consider BOTH versions suspect until the FBI releases it’s statement (and i suppose the inevitable court case that follows). I have very little reason to believe AirTrans just because they said so. That’s the legal part of this. The moral part of this continues to be where the line is drawn in the airlines response to these issues. From what i understand, the marshals had no choice once the passenger made the complaint but how far removed is a passenger complaining that i looked at him funny from a family talking about the relative safety of seat location? At some point there has to be discretion. Also, the airlines version says they did not let them rebook initially because they had not gotten clearance yet. Did they make any effort to get that clearance if that was the case or did they just blow them off? If it was the latter, as i said earlier, i would certainly have been letting loose at the ticket counter reps. Salt in the wounds is no way to fix a mistake. The airlines was very much a part of this whole episode and they bear some responsibility in cleaning up the mess. Did they think the FBI would release them if they felt they were a viable threat? Unfortunately you can’t take away from me the sense that 1. the statement by ANY family about seat safety is not something i would consider threatening, and 2. that if it was my (VERY Caucasian) family making the same statement this would never have happened.
Sid // January 2, 2009 at 9:52 am |
kted, excellent write-up, my thoughts exactly.
Art, sorry I don’t know where to even begin with a response to your request. The request itself is so flawed I don’t know where to begin, I’m sorry but really not coping out.
Who are you defining you need some kind of solice from? All muslims? Just the fanatics which are an extemely obscure minority?
Art // January 2, 2009 at 10:31 am |
Sid,
Stop beating around the bush! (No pun intended…sorry) I, personally don’t have an interest in all of this other than that the harmony in the Middle East is so messed up that people are killing people for stupid reasons. The biggest reason people are dying there, is this phoney reason that the West is bad and must be eradicated from the face of the planet and that “jihad” is the authorization to do it.
The request is simple, yet you say it is flawed? How is it flawed that I ask the very people who claim that Islam promotes peace to stop the insane bombings, killings, if they can, by simply ordering those who claim that this is “jihad” , who have the authority to do so, to order it stopped with a religious decree? How is that flawed to ask a religious base to confirm what they say?
I do not need solice from anyone. You asked me what is it that I need, well, I simply told you what I wanted: I want Muslims to pressure their clerics to order this killing in the name of their brown god, Allah, to stop. … as well as their white god…
kted // January 2, 2009 at 10:42 am |
Just a followup idea for some of our viewers on the board. I think i’ve found a solution for the more paranoid among us. We start an airlines that bars anyone that doesn’t look like us from even getting to the gate. We can call it WhiteFlights Airlines. We can even incorporate some of the better ideas of the last few years for airline safety. One of my favorites is REQUIRING all passengers to carry guns. Do you think a guys gonna pull something when he’s that outgunned? We could even have promo’s where before the flight passengers have “quickdraw” competitions. Whoever wins gets a discount fair, whoever loses gets free transportation back to the funeral home of their choice (in the cargo bay of course). I’ve even got the motto – For a smooth flight, fly white….if there’s brown around it could go down.
If everybody on the same plane is afraid of the same thing, doesn’t it cease to be irrational?
Sid // January 2, 2009 at 10:58 am |
The biggest reason people are dying there, is this phoney reason that the West is bad and must be eradicated from the face of the planet and that “jihad” is the authorization to do it.
*No, flat out wrong stop making complex issues into over simplifications. Hit some sights and look at things from a historical prospective, there are agendas that are political in nature and polarizing the issues because of religion is a cope out. Next you’ll be drumming “they hate freedom.”
The request is simple, yet you say it is flawed? How is it flawed that I ask the very people who claim that Islam promotes peace to stop the insane bombings, killings, if they can, by simply ordering those who claim that this is “jihad” , who have the authority to do so, to order it stopped with a religious decree? How is that flawed to ask a religious base to confirm what they say?
*How is a religious decree going to effect this? Gov’ts are the ones that enforce the law of the land, so name one country that is Anti-America? You obviously lack any knowledge of Islam, and the diversity of muslims of the world. Muslims are not like Catholics with a Pope.
I do not need solice from anyone. You asked me what is it that I need, well, I simply told you what I wanted: I want Muslims to pressure their clerics to order this killing in the name of their brown god, Allah, to stop. … as well as their white god…
*Whats stopping you from pressuring them since you believe clerks have so much power?
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 11:43 am |
Kted – It’s quite common for the media’s “original” story to be inaccurate. If every original story was accurate Dewey would have been the president in 1948. I am confident that when the official report is released Airtran will be vindicated both legally and in the court of public opinion. It is unlikely a business would release an inaccurate statement thereby damaging it’s credibility in the future. If a mistake had been made, Airtran would acknowledge the mistake and make restitution rather than looking deceitful after the FBI release. Regarding your moral concerns, they are well founded. However, it appears you’re holding the airline responsible for something out of their control. You acknowledged yourself that the Air Marshall’s had no choice but to carry out the security procedures to their end. Thus, if there is a problem, it is systemically embedded in our homeland security protocol, not the airline. It may be unfair to remove someone for talking about the airplanes safety, but it would be unfathomable for the TSA and Air Marshals to start disregarding reported threats. Regarding you’re concerns about how quickly Airtran was seeking clearance, give me a break. First, when it comes to security issues, the last thing we need to do is rush the process. Second, it would be unfair for the airline to stop operations to cater to the removed family at the risk of causing hundreds of other passengers to become delayed and miss their connecting flights. Regarding your belief that the airline bears some responsibility in cleaning up the mess, according the release they refunded their fares, despite likely being “nonrefundable.” So much of your latter argument is based on speculation. You should have stuck to the original notion of waiting for the official FBI release.
johnson // January 2, 2009 at 1:09 pm |
The facts:
Just checked back in to see the Article of the Constitution that bestows rights upon corporations. So you know, the whole point of a corporation is to shield individuals from liability. That is why when you start a company and act on its behalf after incorporation, you cannot be sued individually. Therefore, I am sure you appreciate that companies are, in FACT, completely separate than individuals under the law, and hardly have rights of individuals. Now, there is A LOT of stuff I don’t know about so I try to make it a practice of arguing about stuff I slightly know without bending the truth, painting with a broad brush, etc. You might consider the same.
The facts // January 2, 2009 at 3:43 pm |
Johnson – Nice use of the word “fact.” Clever. I appreciate your expertise on the subject. If I was dismissive it about the topic it was only because it was insignificant to my premise. I never meant the constitution specifically assigns rights to corporations. I only meant what I said, that is, that constitutional rights apply to businesses. But since I seemed to touch on a sore spot, I thought I would commend you on technically being right. Good job buddy, keep it up!
johnson // January 2, 2009 at 3:52 pm |
Facts:
It was not insignificant to your premise. Another overstatement. You said that AirTran kicked these folks off because it was their constitutional right. Indeed, they were allowed to kick these people off, but it certainly does not come from a right as sacred as one bestowed in the constitution. More like some boiler plate language on the ticket or some FAA reg. BUT my point goes to how people like you argue. Overstate some things, understate others, and hope no one calls you on anything. Why not live up to your screenname?
kted // January 5, 2009 at 10:08 am |
sorry Facts.. just returned to work today and this is what i’ve read so faron this. The FBI states that the group was cleared about 2 hours after they were removed. They also state that they informed the airlines that there was no threat and that it was Air Trans’ decision not to allow them to reboard the delayed flight or to rebook. So the critical point of WHEN the FBI exonerated them is contradictory to the Air Trans release. Also, the fact is that the complaint was made to the flight attendant and then passed on to the pilot. According to Christopher White of the TSA, it was the pilot’s decision to request the air marshals to remove them from the plane. Based on that comment, then it was Air Trans personnel who designated the conversation as, using your words, a “reported threat”. You continue to frame the conversation as about “Airline Safety” and presenting it as an obvious threat (as any spin control hack would do) when they were carrying on a conversation about the relative safety of their assigned seats (a completely benign conversation). The funniest part of your reply was that an airline would NEVER lie to better present it’s position. Every commercial they advertise is a lie to best present their fares (neglecting to point out all those hidden fees). How about when you’re sitting on the tarmac for four hours in a snow storm being told every 5 minutes you’ll be in the air anytime now (not that the airlines gets billed if you return to the gate)? Saying AirTrans wouldn’t lie is probably the stupidest thing you’ve presented in any of your posts. As far as the father being upset at the ticket counter, again ,this was because the airlines refused to rebook him AFTER THEY KNEW he was not a threat. Find me anyone who would not be upset at that point. ANYONE AT ALL. As far as how nice AIRTRANS was to refund their fare. If i wanted to watch SPIKE TV on an AIRTRANS flight and the woman behind me heard me say Spike and told the flight attendant, who told the pilot, who decided that i had threatened the safety of the plane and requested i be removed (along with the rest of the passengers for a two hour delay), who passed me on to the FBI, who were the only ones with the common sense to realize that Spike TV is only a threat to our intelligence and cleared me of any wrongdoing and told airtrans i was no threat; after all that, Air Trans would be justified in not reloading me, not rebooking me, and not refunding my fare? Gee…. nice way to make a buck.
Nijla // January 6, 2009 at 3:16 pm |
please vote for my documentary: http://www.linktv.org/onenation/films/view/401
which speaks to some of these issues!
-Nijla
Curious // January 9, 2009 at 11:16 pm |
Jay, Im sure George is the type of American who cant tell the difference between an Indian, Native American, or an Arab anyway. All brown people that speak funny are bad and suspicious!
as a matter of fact, since we are blaming entire ethnic and religious groups for the acts of individuals, every time I see a white man, I’m afraid. I see images of the slave trade, the trail of tears, apartheid, and jim Crow. i fear that he will rape me, steal my children, enslave my men, and steal all the natural resources from my land since thats what “you people” do. Of course, he will then deem these acts of “civil”izing us and wonder why my people are suffering for generations. The Native American and the Indian may understand where I’m coming from…
many of you could benefit from reading a book instead of regurgitating media talking points. I’d suggest Benazir Bhutto’s Reconciliation: Islam, Democracy, and the West to answer some of your questions and end these blatant stereotypes. Even if you don’t read the entire thing, Atleast read the part where she explains what jihad really means so you can atleast use the word correctly.
Also, Art wants to know what Muslim countries are doing to adress some of the issues of fanaticism. Interestingly enough, the Economist had an article about Saudi Arabia’s progress with reforming religious fanatics:
http://www.economist.com/world/mideast-africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12470503
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/08/Muslim_clerics_endorse_anti-terror_fatwa/UPI-38241226199440/
Mike // March 2, 2009 at 11:32 am |
Just passing by.Btw, you website have great content!
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